iudex-html 1.1.0-java → 1.2.b.0-java

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  1. data/History.rdoc +11 -0
  2. data/Manifest.txt +5 -1
  3. data/README.rdoc +1 -1
  4. data/Rakefile +2 -36
  5. data/bin/iudex-html-clean +58 -0
  6. data/bin/iudex-html-perftest +59 -0
  7. data/build/HTML.java.erb +1 -1
  8. data/build/attributes +1 -1
  9. data/build/java_generate.rb +1 -1
  10. data/build/tags +1 -1
  11. data/lib/iudex-html/base.rb +2 -2
  12. data/lib/iudex-html/factory_helper.rb +1 -1
  13. data/lib/iudex-html/{iudex-html-1.1.0.jar → iudex-html-1.2.b.0.jar} +0 -0
  14. data/lib/iudex-html.rb +12 -2
  15. data/pom.xml +4 -4
  16. data/test/html_test_helper.rb +7 -6
  17. data/test/reddit.xhtml +557 -0
  18. data/test/setup.rb +18 -16
  19. data/test/test_characters_normalizer.rb +1 -1
  20. data/test/test_extract_filter.rb +1 -1
  21. data/test/test_factory_helper.rb +1 -1
  22. data/test/test_html_parser.rb +21 -1
  23. data/test/test_other_filters.rb +1 -1
  24. data/test/test_other_tree_filters.rb +1 -1
  25. data/test/test_parse_filter.rb +1 -1
  26. data/test/test_stax_parser.rb +78 -0
  27. data/test/test_tree_walker.rb +1 -1
  28. data/test/test_word_counters.rb +1 -1
  29. metadata +43 -48
  30. data/.gemtest +0 -0
data/test/reddit.xhtml ADDED
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+ <html xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml" lang="en-us"><head><title>Reddit, we need to clear up some misunderstandings about the Constitution. The Bill of Rights does not 'give' you rights; you and all men are *born* with rights. The Bill of Rights was meant to stop the Government from *infringing* on your rights. : politics</title><meta name="keywords" content="reddit, reddit.com, vote, comment, submit"/><meta name="title" content="Reddit, we need to clear up some misunderstandings about the Constitution. The Bill of Rights does not 'give' you rights; you and all men are *born* with rights. The Bill of Rights was meant to stop the Government from *infringing* on your rights. : politics"/><meta name="description" content="The wording is very clear. It will help you an **enormous** deal in life if you actually read the Constitution, or at least the Bill of Rights, word f..."/><meta http-equiv="Content-Type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"/><meta name="viewport" content="width=800"/><link rel="stylesheet" href="http://www.redditstatic.com/reddit.QnMa1QMlGVE.css" type="text/css"/><link rel="shorturl" href="http://redd.it/p6qhi"/><link rel="stylesheet" href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/stylesheet.css?v=f5cc9ba1e7531dd126fb69496962093a" title="applied_subreddit_stylesheet" type="text/css"/><link rel="shortcut icon" href="http://www.redditstatic.com/favicon.ico" type="image/x-icon"/><link rel="apple-touch-icon-precomposed" href="http://www.redditstatic.com/icon-touch.png"/><link rel="alternate" type="application/rss+xml" title="RSS" href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/.rss"/></head><body><div id="header"><a href="#content" id="jumpToContent">jump to 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id="header-bottom-right"><span class="user">want to join? <a href="https://ssl.reddit.com/login" class="login-required">login or register</a> in seconds</span><span class="separator">|</span><ul class="flat-list hover"><li><a href="javascript:void(0)" class="pref-lang">English</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="side"><div class="spacer"><form id="search"><div id="searchexpando" class="infobar"><div id="moresearchinfo"><p>use the following search parameters to narrow your results:</p><dl><dt>reddit:{name}</dt><dd>find things posted in {name} only</dd><dt>author:{username}</dt><dd>return things submitted by {username} only</dd><dt>site:{domain}</dt><dd>get links to pages on {domain} only</dd><dt>url:{text}</dt><dd>search for {text} in url</dd><dt>selftext:{text}</dt><dd>search for {text} in self post contents</dd><dt>is_self:{yes|no}</dt><dd>include or exclude self posts</dd><dt>over18:{yes|no}</dt><dd>include or exclude results from nsfw reddits</dd></dl><p>e.g.<code>reddit:pics 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class="spacer"/><div class="spacer"><div class="titlebox"><h1 class="hover redditname"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/" class="hover">politics</a></h1><span class="fancy-toggle-button toggle" style=""><a class="option active remove login-required" href="#">unsubscribe</a><a class="option add" href="#">subscribe</a></span><span class="number">1,077,803</span> <span class="word">readers</span><form class="usertext" id="form-t5_2cneqtz6"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><hr/>
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+ </div></form><div class="bottom">created by <a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/spez" class="author id-t2_1w72">spez</a><span class="userattrs"/><span class="age">a community for </span></div><div class="clear"/></div></div><div class="spacer"><iframe id="ad-frame" name="ad-frame" src="http://www.redditmedia.com/ads/r/politics/"/></div><div class="spacer"><div class="sidebox submit"><div class="morelink"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/submit" class="login-required">Submit a link</a><div class="nub"/></div><div class="spacer"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/submit" class="login-required"/><div class="subtitle">to anything interesting: news article, blog entry, video, picture...</div></div></div></div><div class="spacer"><div class="sidecontentbox"><a class="helplink" href="/message/compose?to=%23politics">message the moderators</a><h1>MODERATORS</h1><ul class="content"><li><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/BritishEnglishPolice" class="author id-t2_37vxi">BritishEnglishPolice</a><span class="userattrs"/></li><li><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/qgyh2" class="author id-t2_1uzpp">qgyh2</a><span class="userattrs"/></li><li><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/ProbablyHittingOnYou" class="author id-t2_4a5h0">ProbablyHittingOnYou</a><span class="userattrs"/></li><li><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/SolInvictus" class="author id-t2_36y63">SolInvictus</a><span class="userattrs"/></li><li><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/PoliticsMod" class="author id-t2_5fw0q">PoliticsMod</a><span class="userattrs"/></li><li><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/doug3465" class="author id-t2_4d9s0">doug3465</a><span class="userattrs"/></li><li><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/anutensil" class="author id-t2_3kbhj">anutensil</a><span class="userattrs"/></li><li><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/maxwellhill" class="author id-t2_2yqt">maxwellhill</a><span class="userattrs"/></li><li><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/dzneill" class="author id-t2_3usiy">dzneill</a><span class="userattrs"/></li><li><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/andrewinmelbourne" class="author id-t2_15atr">andrewinmelbourne</a><span class="userattrs"/></li><li class="more"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/about/moderators">...and 6 more »</a></li></ul></div></div></div><a name="content"/><div class="content"><div id="siteTable" class="sitetable linklisting"><div class="thing id-t3_p6qhi odd link self"><p class="parent"/><span class="rank" style="width:0px;display:none;">1</span><div class="midcol unvoted" style="width:4ex;"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="score dislikes">266</div><div class="score unvoted">267</div><div class="score likes">268</div><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><p class="title"><a class="title" href="/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/">Reddit, we need to clear up some misunderstandings about the Constitution. The Bill of Rights does not 'give' you rights; you and all men are *born* with rights. The Bill of Rights was meant to stop the Government from *infringing* on your rights.</a> <span class="domain">(<a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/">self.politics</a>)</span></p><p class="tagline">submitted ago by <a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/NeoPlatonist" class="author id-t2_6rasj">NeoPlatonist</a><span class="userattrs"/></p><div class="expando"><form class="usertext" id="form-t3_p6qhigjn"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>The wording is very clear. It will help you an <strong>enormous</strong> deal in life if you actually read the Constitution, or at least the Bill of Rights, word for word. Your understanding and interpretation of those words are what ultimately matters, as the government will try to slowly erode public understanding until the Constitution is basically worthless.</p>
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+ <p>Just a quick example:</p>
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+ <p>AMENDMENT I</p>
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+ <p>Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.</p>
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+
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+ <p>Amendment 1 does not read "People of America, you now have freedom of speech." Amendment 1 reads "Hey Congress, don't make any laws prohibiting the freedom of speech that everyone <strong>is born with</strong>."</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form></div><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a class="comments" href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/" target="_parent">151 comments</a></li><li class="share"><span class="share-button toggle" style=""><a class="option active login-required" href="#">share</a><a class="option" href="#">cancel</a></span></li></ul></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="commentarea"><div class="panestack-title"><span class="title">all 151 comments</span></div><div class="menuarea"><div class="spacer"><span class="dropdown-title lightdrop">sorted by: </span><div class="dropdown lightdrop"><span class="selected">best</span></div><div class="drop-choices lightdrop"><form><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/?sort=hot" class="choice">hot</a></form><form><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/?sort=new" class="choice">new</a></form><form><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/?sort=controversial" class="choice">controversial</a></form><form><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/?sort=top" class="choice">top</a></form><form><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/?sort=old" class="choice">old</a></form></div></div></div><div id="siteTable_t3_p6qhi" class="sitetable nestedlisting"><div class="thing id-t1_c3mzrox odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3mzrox"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/WheresMyElephant" class="author gray id-t2_4b2y4">WheresMyElephant</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">14 points</span><span class="score unvoted">15 points</span><span class="score likes">16 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(8 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/WheresMyElephant" class="author id-t2_4b2y4">WheresMyElephant</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">14 points</span><span class="score unvoted">15 points</span><span class="score likes">16 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3mzroxk09"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>This is indeed the viewpoint behind the Constitution, and you can make the case for a judicial philosophy in which government officials (particularly judges) are bound to follow that spirit.</p>
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+
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+ <p>But the proposition that <em>in fact</em> natural rights exist as part of the metaphysical nature of the universe, regardless of whether we respect, acknowledge, or even understand them? This is a philosophical problem which, like most big problems in ethics and philosophy in general, is unlikely to be conclusively solved in the foreseeable future. Personally I tend toward the belief that they're a legal fiction but a very useful one.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3mzrox" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3mzrox" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n3fcs odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n3fcs"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/annata" class="author gray id-t2_59va0">annata</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/annata" class="author id-t2_59va0">annata</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n3fcsbdd"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>How is that a problem? Our so called rights a negative rights, that emerge in a social context from the observation that no one has an inherent authority over others and that we are all equal in our lack of authority.</p>
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+
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+ <p>The Universal Declaration and the various constitutions that are beholden to this observation, merely codify various rights that help us establish our sovereignty against each other in a social context</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n3fcs" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3mzrox" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n03mz even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n03mz"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted" style="display:none"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/NeoPlatonist" class="author gray submitter id-t2_6rasj">NeoPlatonist</a><span class="userattrs">[<a class="submitter" title="submitter" href="/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/">S</a>]</span> comment score below threshold  <a href="#" class="expand">(6 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed" style="display:none"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/NeoPlatonist" class="author submitter id-t2_6rasj">NeoPlatonist</a><span class="userattrs">[<a class="submitter" title="submitter" href="/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/">S</a>]</span> <span class="score dislikes">-12 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-11 points</span><span class="score likes">-10 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n03mz1ns"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Truth or fact of metaphysics or whatever the hell you want to call it doesn't matter. We have a constitution this country was founded on. If you don't like it, go to another country.</p>
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+
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+ <p>We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n03mz" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3mzrox" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child" style="display:none"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n03mz" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n0qnz odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n0qnz"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Dichotomy01" class="author gray id-t2_5m4k9">Dichotomy01</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">8 points</span><span class="score unvoted">9 points</span><span class="score likes">10 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Dichotomy01" class="author id-t2_5m4k9">Dichotomy01</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">8 points</span><span class="score unvoted">9 points</span><span class="score likes">10 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n0qnz1hp"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Um, that's not the Constitution.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n0qnz" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n03mz" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n0gux even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n0gux"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/WheresMyElephant" class="author gray id-t2_4b2y4">WheresMyElephant</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">5 points</span><span class="score unvoted">6 points</span><span class="score likes">7 points</span> ago<em>*</em>   <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/WheresMyElephant" class="author id-t2_4b2y4">WheresMyElephant</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">5 points</span><span class="score unvoted">6 points</span><span class="score likes">7 points</span> ago<em>*</em> </p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n0gux7jr"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>&gt;Truth doesn't matter</p>
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+
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+ <p>Is this the Neoplatonist viewpoint or just your own?</p>
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+
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+ <p>I thought this country was founded on (among other things) freedom of speech and freedom of belief. Which entails that we're allowed to have our own opinions, particularly on arcane philosophical topics, and still live in this country. If you don't believe these things then maybe you shouldn't be lecturing us on natural rights and unwavering adherence to America's founding principles?</p>
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+
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+ <p>Edit: Also, if the Founding Fathers hadn't cared deeply about cutting edge developments in academic philosophy, we wouldn't have a Constitution that talks about "natural rights." Saying that the abstract discussion doesn't matter seems like a poor way to honor their memories.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n0gux" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n03mz" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n1asn odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n1asn"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/pie-oh-my" class="author gray id-t2_5a4oe">pie-oh-my</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">3 points</span><span class="score likes">4 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(1 child)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/pie-oh-my" class="author id-t2_5a4oe">pie-oh-my</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">3 points</span><span class="score likes">4 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n1asnutk"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Yeah if you don't like the constitution you should leave-that's why it has a mechanism for changing it, right?</p>
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+
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+ <p>The incredibly irony between this post and your submission is unbelievable. Looks like you need to read the constitution.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n1asn" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n03mz" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n1asn" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n2sug even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n2sug"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/hackinthebochs" class="author gray id-t2_356bi">hackinthebochs</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">3 points</span><span class="score likes">4 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/hackinthebochs" class="author id-t2_356bi">hackinthebochs</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">3 points</span><span class="score likes">4 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n2sugkes"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><blockquote>
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+ <p>The incredibly irony between this post and your submission is unbelievable</p>
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+ </blockquote>
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+
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+ <p>Yeah, I can't quite get over that. Just... wow.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n2sug" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n1asn" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n2m9g odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n2m9g"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Humlee" class="author gray id-t2_4oxdc">Humlee</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-1 points</span><span class="score unvoted">0 points</span><span class="score likes">1 point</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Humlee" class="author id-t2_4oxdc">Humlee</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-1 points</span><span class="score unvoted">0 points</span><span class="score likes">1 point</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n2m9g4sp"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>You are exactly correct.</p>
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+
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+ <p>Why some people are so willing to piss away the only argument they really have going for them, I will never know.</p>
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+
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+ <p>Keep up the good fight.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n2m9g" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n03mz" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3mzxy0 even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3mzxy0"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/FireNexus" class="author gray id-t2_4d34m">FireNexus</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">23 points</span><span class="score unvoted">24 points</span><span class="score likes">25 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(27 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/FireNexus" class="author id-t2_4d34m">FireNexus</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">23 points</span><span class="score unvoted">24 points</span><span class="score likes">25 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3mzxy0y01"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>The constitution claims we are born with rights, but that's stupid. Rights are as made up as any aspect of our culture. The constitution does, effectively, give you your rights, regardless of how it's worded.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3mzxy0" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3mzxy0" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n1z28 even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n1z28"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/rubberstuntbaby" class="author gray id-t2_6102b">rubberstuntbaby</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">9 points</span><span class="score unvoted">10 points</span><span class="score likes">11 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(3 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/rubberstuntbaby" class="author id-t2_6102b">rubberstuntbaby</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">9 points</span><span class="score unvoted">10 points</span><span class="score likes">11 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n1z28ghi"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>The Constitution <em>guarantees</em> rights, no document can create rights.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n1z28" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3mzxy0" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n1z28" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n2i9u odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n2i9u"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/FireNexus" class="author gray id-t2_4d34m">FireNexus</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">6 points</span><span class="score unvoted">7 points</span><span class="score likes">8 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(2 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/FireNexus" class="author id-t2_4d34m">FireNexus</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">6 points</span><span class="score unvoted">7 points</span><span class="score likes">8 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n2i9u7kb"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Those rights only exist because everyone agrees. The constitution is the agreement. Ergo, the constitution creates those rights.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n2i9u" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n1z28" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n2i9u" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n3d05 odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n3d05"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/NeoPlatonist" class="author gray submitter id-t2_6rasj">NeoPlatonist</a><span class="userattrs">[<a class="submitter" title="submitter" href="/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/">S</a>]</span> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/NeoPlatonist" class="author submitter id-t2_6rasj">NeoPlatonist</a><span class="userattrs">[<a class="submitter" title="submitter" href="/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/">S</a>]</span> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n3d05vl4"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>everyone agrees because philosophy.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n3d05" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n2i9u" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n3n4t even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n3n4t"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Jimbabwe" class="author gray id-t2_41eyc">Jimbabwe</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Jimbabwe" class="author id-t2_41eyc">Jimbabwe</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n3n4tk05"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><blockquote>
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+ <p>Rights are as made up as any aspect of our culture.</p>
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+ </blockquote>
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+
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+ <p>Wrong wrong wrong! Rights exist in nature, now and forever, till the end of time. Freedom of speech is an easy one, so I'll use another example: By being alive you have a right to defend yourself when attacked. Even animals have this right, though the idea of an animal having to justify itself is kind of silly, but the point remains. If you kick a dog and he bites you, that's on YOU. <strong>The bill of rights is man's imperfect attempt to codify these NATURAL rights.</strong> For every natural right there is a corresponding law in the bill of rights. The right to bare arms is legalese for "You have a right to defend yourself" which isn't really specific enough to be written up in a fancy document like the BoR.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n3n4t" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3mzxy0" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n1jx7 odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n1jx7"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted" style="display:none"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/shane_c" class="author gray id-t2_3za1d">shane_c</a><span class="userattrs"/> comment score below threshold  <a href="#" class="expand">(7 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed" style="display:none"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/shane_c" class="author id-t2_3za1d">shane_c</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-6 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-5 points</span><span class="score likes">-4 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n1jx7cc6"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Rights are freedom. We are born free. Its govt thats made up.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n1jx7" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3mzxy0" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child" style="display:none"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n1jx7" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n2hac even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n2hac"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/FireNexus" class="author gray id-t2_4d34m">FireNexus</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">6 points</span><span class="score unvoted">7 points</span><span class="score likes">8 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/FireNexus" class="author id-t2_4d34m">FireNexus</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">6 points</span><span class="score unvoted">7 points</span><span class="score likes">8 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n2hacjuu"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Meaningless platitude. Government is just a social grouping, something we've been doing back to our monkey days. Some form of government, a check on "freedom", is fundamental to what we are. I see nothing fundamental about "rights" other than a gentleman's agreement.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n2hac" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n1jx7" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n20pl odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n20pl"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/quikjl" class="author gray id-t2_4ox1g">quikjl</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-1 points</span><span class="score likes">0 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(5 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/quikjl" class="author id-t2_4ox1g">quikjl</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-1 points</span><span class="score likes">0 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n20pl4qe"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>I'm not sure if it's ignorance or a rightwing agenda provoking your downvotes, but the founding fathers said exactly what you typed.</p>
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+
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+ <p>maybe conservatives don't understand that? maybe our public education has failed miserably? USA is a place where constitution is read loosely but the bible is read literally.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n20pl" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n1jx7" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n20pl" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n2rdz even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n2rdz"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Warlyik" class="author gray id-t2_3l8uk">Warlyik</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(4 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Warlyik" class="author id-t2_3l8uk">Warlyik</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n2rdzz9d"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>As a leftist I'm here to downvote you.</p>
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+
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+ <p>Nobody is born with rights. We either agree, as a society, to uphold certain values, credos, laws and mores, "rights", as it pertains to our civilizations, or we don't. If we do, we discuss what should and should not be a right - for instance, to own private property in this country, everyone must agree that one is thus entitled to that property, and that if others attempt to, or actually forcefully take that property outside of the law, they are thus held to the standards of law that we've agreed upon. Without that cooperation, you do not have any "right" to private property. Without police, military, without some kind of FORCE to protect that right, you would likely be fighting with everyone else over property, and whoever wielded the most force would be able to control the largest share.</p>
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+
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+ <p>The rights that we've "agreed" to uphold in America are different than in Europe. Around the world, different people have chosen to protect different aspects of what they consider to be rights. And in an instant, those "rights" can be taken away from you - such is the fact that they are indeed alienable. The sociopolitical nuttery of Ron Paulites never ceases to amaze me. These magical ideas, just like the "magical hand of the free market", are insane and show just how people such as yourself are completely disconnected from reality. You are so invested in your ideology that you've actually created in your head a caricature of the real universe so perverse that it's mysticism and "truthiness" is almost tangible enough to replace the gross injustices of the actual world that you've yet to accept, mostly because it doesn't fit into your magical idea of what is just.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n2rdz" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n20pl" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n2rdz" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n2y4v odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n2y4v"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/quikjl" class="author gray id-t2_4ox1g">quikjl</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-3 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-2 points</span><span class="score likes">-1 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(2 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/quikjl" class="author id-t2_4ox1g">quikjl</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-3 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-2 points</span><span class="score likes">-1 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n2y4vjq0"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>you can claim to be a leftist, righwing, whatever. this is the internet. I don't care what you CLAIM to be. you can claim to be 8 feet tall as far as I care.</p>
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+
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+ <p>why you would defend the idea that we aren't born with rights... isn't really in my scope of interest. </p>
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+
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+ <p>If you think individual liberty should not exist because of 'culture', uh....well...maybe China is the spot for you? </p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n2y4v" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n2rdz" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n2y4v" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n318y even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n318y"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Warlyik" class="author gray id-t2_3l8uk">Warlyik</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(1 child)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Warlyik" class="author id-t2_3l8uk">Warlyik</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n318yvk0"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Individual liberty? You mean like how billionaires/millionaires continually take take take from and exploit everyone else for personal gain? Like how China allows the exploitation of its population by capitalist enterprises? Yes, let's talk about the individual liberties of the people that are continually denied a meaningful existence merely because they were unlucky enough to be born in slums; or the fact that others who care more for their own self, their own profit, simply do whatever the hell they want: rape, pillage, and plunder every natural resource of "third world" nations so that the people of those nations, who, under your philosophy are "born with rights", such as individual liberty, are thus denied any liberty at all and watch as their futures sail away to some distant shore to be gobbled up by megalomaniac consumers driven to destroy the world thanks to the incessant propagandizing (also known as advertising) of profiteers.</p>
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+
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+ <p>Oh yes, you know so much of individual liberty. That, to me, is nothing more than a wolf in sheep's clothing; a phrase meant to placate, but in reality represents the greatest of all tyranny. Individual liberty that is left unrestrained is nothing more than an insatiable monster, capable only of consuming until nothing is left. Such is the world we have today. There are people that can pretty much literally do whatever they want. They are your role-models, they are your billionaires. And they cause, both directly and indirectly, suffering on a scale never seen in human history. You should be proud.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n318y" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n2y4v" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n318y" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n35rl odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n35rl"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/quikjl" class="author gray id-t2_4ox1g">quikjl</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/quikjl" class="author id-t2_4ox1g">quikjl</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n35rl7j5"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>don't get mad at me. I'm not the one arguing individual liberty means citizens united is ok. if you've seen me in comments, I'm opposing those who claim money is speech. </p>
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+
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+ <p>your rant kind of goes off topic, so I'm not sure how to address it. you're pretty worked up for no reason. </p>
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+
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+ <p>edit: individual liberty AND equality are part of constitution and founding philosophy. just because history got hijacked by greed doesn't change the fact of what political philosophy was used for constitution. </p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n35rl" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n318y" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n03ab even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n03ab"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted" style="display:none"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/NeoPlatonist" class="author gray submitter id-t2_6rasj">NeoPlatonist</a><span class="userattrs">[<a class="submitter" title="submitter" href="/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/">S</a>]</span> comment score below threshold  <a href="#" class="expand">(9 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed" style="display:none"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/NeoPlatonist" class="author submitter id-t2_6rasj">NeoPlatonist</a><span class="userattrs">[<a class="submitter" title="submitter" href="/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/">S</a>]</span> <span class="score dislikes">-9 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-8 points</span><span class="score likes">-7 points</span> ago<em>*</em> </p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n03abar4"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n03ab" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3mzxy0" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child" style="display:none"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n03ab" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n0m5s odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n0m5s"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/kybrarian" class="author gray id-t2_5vlla">kybrarian</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">6 points</span><span class="score unvoted">7 points</span><span class="score likes">8 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(3 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/kybrarian" class="author id-t2_5vlla">kybrarian</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">6 points</span><span class="score unvoted">7 points</span><span class="score likes">8 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n0m5slwc"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>You keep quoting the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n0m5s" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n03ab" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n0m5s" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n0qgh even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n0qgh"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/SecretAgentDaddy" class="author gray id-t2_5j6w2">SecretAgentDaddy</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">8 points</span><span class="score unvoted">9 points</span><span class="score likes">10 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(1 child)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/SecretAgentDaddy" class="author id-t2_5j6w2">SecretAgentDaddy</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">8 points</span><span class="score unvoted">9 points</span><span class="score likes">10 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n0qghojf"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Seriously. </p>
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+
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+ <blockquote>
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+ <p>It will help you an enormous deal in life if you actually read the Constitution</p>
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+ </blockquote>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n0qgh" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n0m5s" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n0qgh" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n0s16 odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n0s16"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Dichotomy01" class="author gray id-t2_5m4k9">Dichotomy01</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">3 points</span><span class="score unvoted">4 points</span><span class="score likes">5 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Dichotomy01" class="author id-t2_5m4k9">Dichotomy01</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">3 points</span><span class="score unvoted">4 points</span><span class="score likes">5 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n0s16o9m"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>But it's so looooong! And what the hell is this amendment bullshit?</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n0s16" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n0qgh" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n1v3e odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n1v3e"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/BlackbeltJones" class="author gray id-t2_3v6oj">BlackbeltJones</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/BlackbeltJones" class="author id-t2_3v6oj">BlackbeltJones</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n1v3euc3"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tJqqrahZvss#t=38s" rel="nofollow">Even Rick Santorum caught himself.</a></p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n1v3e" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n0m5s" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n0rmd even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n0rmd"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Atheist101" class="author gray id-t2_3mgm2">Atheist101</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">3 points</span><span class="score likes">4 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Atheist101" class="author id-t2_3mgm2">Atheist101</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">3 points</span><span class="score likes">4 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n0rmd18c"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>The wording is theoretical. The application is practical. In application, the government grants us these rights at birth even though in theory, it says we are born with them by nature. The government gets to decide which rights we keep too (see: Military Dictatorships). The only way to truly guarantee that we are born with certain rights is to abolish government and the whole god damned system that humanity has created. Basically, anarchy. That way, you are the one guaranteeing yourself of your own rights by way that you please to stop others from infringing on your rights.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n0rmd" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n03ab" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n0uq4 even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n0uq4"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/RedPanther1" class="author gray id-t2_4frbl">RedPanther1</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(2 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/RedPanther1" class="author id-t2_4frbl">RedPanther1</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n0uq4826"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>That quote implies we have rights because "god". If you don't believe in god then that quote should have no real meaning to you. What has endowed you with rights beyond this random thought that you should have them?</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n0uq4" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n03ab" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n0uq4" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n1ok0 even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n1ok0"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/shane_c" class="author gray id-t2_3za1d">shane_c</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-1 points</span><span class="score likes">0 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(1 child)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/shane_c" class="author id-t2_3za1d">shane_c</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-1 points</span><span class="score likes">0 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n1ok0bvr"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Nature.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n1ok0" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n0uq4" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n1ok0" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n1uyc odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n1uyc"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/RedPanther1" class="author gray id-t2_4frbl">RedPanther1</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/RedPanther1" class="author id-t2_4frbl">RedPanther1</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n1uycmpx"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Nature implies no rights. Does that squirrel that got eaten by a hawk have it's rights infringed on by being eaten and not being able to live out its life or is the hawk exercising its rights to have a full meal every day by the means nature afforded it? Rights are an illusion created by the human brain. If they were afforded by nature then why did it take hundreds of thousands of years for us to realize they were there?</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n1uyc" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n1ok0" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n2fw0 odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n2fw0"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/FireNexus" class="author gray id-t2_4d34m">FireNexus</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/FireNexus" class="author id-t2_4d34m">FireNexus</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n2fw0gcd"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>They can hold those truths to be self-evident all they like. Doesn't make it so, and I see no evidence backing up the claim.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n2fw0" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n03ab" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n0gtj even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n0gtj"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Guy_Dudebro" class="author gray id-t2_4zdzl">Guy_Dudebro</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-4 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-3 points</span><span class="score likes">-2 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(3 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Guy_Dudebro" class="author id-t2_4zdzl">Guy_Dudebro</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-4 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-3 points</span><span class="score likes">-2 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n0gtj8k6"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Your rights may be made up, but no more so than the law itself. It's just a way of convincing everyone to agree. True I have no right to speak if everyone around me will kill me for doing so, or I have no way of stopping them. So what?</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n0gtj" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3mzxy0" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n0gtj" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n2i4n odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n2i4n"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/FireNexus" class="author gray id-t2_4d34m">FireNexus</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/FireNexus" class="author id-t2_4d34m">FireNexus</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n2i4nhva"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>The OP made an assertion. There was no evidence for the assertion. I challenged it. That's what.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n2i4n" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n0gtj" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n209z even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n209z"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/rubberstuntbaby" class="author gray id-t2_6102b">rubberstuntbaby</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(1 child)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/rubberstuntbaby" class="author id-t2_6102b">rubberstuntbaby</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n209z4m7"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>You still have the <em>right</em> to speak even if your rights are not protected.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n209z" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n0gtj" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n209z" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n3hfn odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n3hfn"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/notanidiot" class="author gray id-t2_363a2">notanidiot</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/notanidiot" class="author id-t2_363a2">notanidiot</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n3hfn5l4"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>says who?</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n3hfn" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n209z" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n06f1 odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n06f1"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/mikeash" class="author gray id-t2_2gw93">mikeash</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">6 points</span><span class="score unvoted">7 points</span><span class="score likes">8 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(8 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/mikeash" class="author id-t2_2gw93">mikeash</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">6 points</span><span class="score unvoted">7 points</span><span class="score likes">8 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n06f1v2r"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>What is the practical difference between these two?</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n06f1" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n06f1" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n0drm odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n0drm"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Guy_Dudebro" class="author gray id-t2_4zdzl">Guy_Dudebro</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">3 points</span><span class="score likes">4 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(6 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Guy_Dudebro" class="author id-t2_4zdzl">Guy_Dudebro</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">3 points</span><span class="score likes">4 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n0drm5gy"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Point being, you have an infinite number of other rights which don't make an appearance in any law. Say, the right to stand on one foot. In the BoR and other state documents, certain rights are given explicit protection from the government simply because they are the ones most likely to be abridged by governments throughout time. But to enumerate every single thing you're free to do would be impossible.</p>
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+
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+ <p>Ludicrous as it sounds, if the city makes an ordinance against standing on one foot, and a cop tackles you and arrests you for it, it's just as horrible as arresting you for owning a firearm or refusing a search. So when NeoPlatonist tells people, "Hey, we have the right to stand on one foot, people! Fight for it!" and they say "Nu-uh, it's nowhere in the constitution!" he'll go ahead and call them a dullard.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n0drm" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n06f1" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n0drm" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n0t0d even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n0t0d"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/shreekingeels" class="author gray id-t2_6o6zj">shreekingeels</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">3 points</span><span class="score unvoted">4 points</span><span class="score likes">5 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(3 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/shreekingeels" class="author id-t2_6o6zj">shreekingeels</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">3 points</span><span class="score unvoted">4 points</span><span class="score likes">5 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n0t0di04"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>you still aren't saying where these rights come from.
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+ a)Universally true: this is a type of right, not an origin. I think philosophy has gotten over universal models of morality and human rights after Kant
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+ b) Accessible to reason: reason is easily bent and is simply a method to arrive at morality. What do you tap into when you rationally declare something correct
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+ c) Defended by arms: Lots of things are defended by arms, some of which I'm sure we couldn't agree are morally acceptable.</p>
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+
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+ <p>I'm sorry if my answers are incomplete or lack clarity, but I am a bit drunk</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n0t0d" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n0drm" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n0t0d" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n35g7 odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n35g7"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Soupstorm" class="author gray id-t2_36vjl">Soupstorm</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Soupstorm" class="author id-t2_36vjl">Soupstorm</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n35g7ax8"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><blockquote>
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+ <p>I think philosophy has gotten over universal models of morality and human rights after Kant</p>
245
+ </blockquote>
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+
247
+ <p>The presumption that Kant is somehow the standard of philosophical logic, let alone that any such status quo of thought could ever be <em>assumed</em> to be correct, flies in the face of philosophy itself.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n35g7" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n0t0d" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n176p odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n176p"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Guy_Dudebro" class="author gray id-t2_4zdzl">Guy_Dudebro</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-1 points</span><span class="score likes">0 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Guy_Dudebro" class="author id-t2_4zdzl">Guy_Dudebro</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-1 points</span><span class="score likes">0 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n176p5ru"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Same :P</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n176p" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n0t0d" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n209h odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n209h"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Zerkabaius" class="author gray id-t2_3rrov">Zerkabaius</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-1 points</span><span class="score unvoted">0 points</span><span class="score likes">1 point</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Zerkabaius" class="author id-t2_3rrov">Zerkabaius</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-1 points</span><span class="score unvoted">0 points</span><span class="score likes">1 point</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n209hm2t"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><blockquote>
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+ <p>philosophy has gotten over universal models of morality and human rights after Kant </p>
253
+ </blockquote>
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+
255
+ <p>I think this is a huge mistake and it is no surprise we have such a huge divide in today's world when half the people view philosophy completely different from how our founding fathers did</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n209h" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n0t0d" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n0kpg odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n0kpg"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/mikeash" class="author gray id-t2_2gw93">mikeash</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">3 points</span><span class="score likes">4 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(1 child)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/mikeash" class="author id-t2_2gw93">mikeash</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">3 points</span><span class="score likes">4 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n0kpg7qs"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>I'm not sure I see the connection, there. The law could certainly give you all rights except a certain set, if one were so inclined. What would be the difference between being born with rights and being given those same rights by the law?</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n0kpg" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n0drm" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n0kpg" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n1vdw even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n1vdw"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/rubberstuntbaby" class="author gray id-t2_6102b">rubberstuntbaby</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-1 points</span><span class="score likes">0 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/rubberstuntbaby" class="author id-t2_6102b">rubberstuntbaby</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-1 points</span><span class="score likes">0 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n1vdwux7"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Rights granted by the govt can be taken by the govt, however rights inherent to all humanity cannot. While I do understand that an unenforced right is pretty useless all human beings are still entitled to them and it is morally wrong to deny them.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n1vdw" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n0kpg" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n210w even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n210w"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Zerkabaius" class="author gray id-t2_3rrov">Zerkabaius</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-3 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-2 points</span><span class="score likes">-1 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Zerkabaius" class="author id-t2_3rrov">Zerkabaius</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-3 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-2 points</span><span class="score likes">-1 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n210w57p"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>take breathing for example. You have the right to breathe and you can do that even if there is no government. All the government can do is restrict on your right to breathe. So when the government is upholding your right to breathe, it isn't allowing you to breathe but it is not limiting your breathing in any way</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n210w" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n06f1" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n0g1g even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n0g1g"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Infinitezen" class="author gray id-t2_417l9">Infinitezen</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">19 points</span><span class="score unvoted">20 points</span><span class="score likes">21 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(54 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Infinitezen" class="author id-t2_417l9">Infinitezen</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">19 points</span><span class="score unvoted">20 points</span><span class="score likes">21 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n0g1gr07"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>I'm sure platitudes like this make us all warm and fuzzy, but they are pretty laughable in the face of human history at large. Might makes right, and it pretty much always has. People are born with what they are given, and they are given what their providers have available to them. What should be and what is are two vastly different propositions, everyone has freedom of speech, in the sense that they can say whatever words their brain is capable of forming through whatever medium of communication is open to them, but no one is free from the consequences of said speech, for example. </p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n0g1g" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n0g1g" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n26x5 even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n26x5"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Zerkabaius" class="author gray id-t2_3rrov">Zerkabaius</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">3 points</span><span class="score unvoted">4 points</span><span class="score likes">5 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(38 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Zerkabaius" class="author id-t2_3rrov">Zerkabaius</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">3 points</span><span class="score unvoted">4 points</span><span class="score likes">5 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n26x5kui"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><blockquote>
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+ <p>Might makes right, and it pretty much always has.</p>
267
+ </blockquote>
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+
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+ <p>How the hell did this get upvoted? Might does not make fucking right and if you want to claim so, then the mightiest person can go fucking kill, rape, or enslave whoever the hell they want. Shit like this is deeply important because it was the first time EVER that a country was founded based on philosophical ideas and it was hugely successful at that!</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n26x5" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n0g1g" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n26x5" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n2jzs even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n2jzs"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/korvanos" class="author gray id-t2_4a6cy">korvanos</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">3 points</span><span class="score likes">4 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(24 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/korvanos" class="author id-t2_4a6cy">korvanos</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">3 points</span><span class="score likes">4 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n2jzsani"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Because right and wrong are just words we made up to differentiate between things we like and things we don't.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n2jzs" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n26x5" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n2jzs" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n2tut odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n2tut"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Zerkabaius" class="author gray id-t2_3rrov">Zerkabaius</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-1 points</span><span class="score unvoted">0 points</span><span class="score likes">1 point</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(23 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Zerkabaius" class="author id-t2_3rrov">Zerkabaius</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-1 points</span><span class="score unvoted">0 points</span><span class="score likes">1 point</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n2tuttwv"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>so the majority decides what is right and what is wrong?</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n2tut" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n2jzs" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n2tut" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n2v78 odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n2v78"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/newacount" class="author gray id-t2_4ad5q">newacount</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(22 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/newacount" class="author id-t2_4ad5q">newacount</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n2v78hzf"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Yep, along with inherent human instincts. </p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n2v78" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n2tut" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n2v78" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n2w3p even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n2w3p"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Zerkabaius" class="author gray id-t2_3rrov">Zerkabaius</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(21 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Zerkabaius" class="author id-t2_3rrov">Zerkabaius</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n2w3pc6n"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>so slavery would be perfectly ok if the majority of people agreed that it was?</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n2w3p" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n2v78" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n2w3p" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n30bl odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n30bl"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/quikjl" class="author gray id-t2_4ox1g">quikjl</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-1 points</span><span class="score unvoted">0 points</span><span class="score likes">1 point</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(4 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/quikjl" class="author id-t2_4ox1g">quikjl</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-1 points</span><span class="score unvoted">0 points</span><span class="score likes">1 point</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n30bl8u5"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>according to 2/3 of the commenters in this thread, yes...it is. </p>
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+
281
+ <p>thank god none of these cowards founded this country.</p>
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+
283
+ <p>on the other hand, most of them are trying to show off their embrace of "realpolitik", unfortunately, they seem to be confused by how it relates to the philosophy of the founding of this country (or any other secular country).</p>
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+
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+ <p>Or, we just have a bunch of so-called 'social darwinists' here who hate life because high school treated them badly.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n30bl" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n2w3p" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n30bl" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n3153 odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n3153"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/newacount" class="author gray id-t2_4ad5q">newacount</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(3 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/newacount" class="author id-t2_4ad5q">newacount</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n31532zt"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Yeah, it was founded by racist, misogynist slave owners ... which many of us are not today. </p>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n3153" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n30bl" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n3153" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n33m4 odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n33m4"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Zerkabaius" class="author gray id-t2_3rrov">Zerkabaius</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-1 points</span><span class="score unvoted">0 points</span><span class="score likes">1 point</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(2 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Zerkabaius" class="author id-t2_3rrov">Zerkabaius</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-1 points</span><span class="score unvoted">0 points</span><span class="score likes">1 point</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n33m445x"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>you say it like it is a bad thing but if the majority agreed that slavery was ok than what they did was perfectly fine right?</p>
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+ <p>Unless you want to say that it was morally wrong for them to have slaves</p>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n33m4" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n3153" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n33m4" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n36og odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n36og"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/newacount" class="author gray id-t2_4ad5q">newacount</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(1 child)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/newacount" class="author id-t2_4ad5q">newacount</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n36og6mm"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Yeah, I think it was immoral (or rather was bought up in environment that abhors slavery), and so does my fellow countrymen, and hence slavery doesn't exist today. </p>
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+ <p>Still, it was morally ok by their own standards to have slave. If you asked Jefferson that was he an immoral man, he would have perhaps dueled you to death. You think that founding fathers were evil, immoral pigs who did that knowing that it was wrong ... And now everyone today is so smug to be able to reach pinnacle of human morals. </p>
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+ <p>Heck, I don't even know at this point what people here are arguing for ... I'm out ... Let people live in cocoon where they have rights just because ... I will keep fighting to create them as they are needed.</p>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n36og" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n33m4" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n36og" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n3cov morerecursion"><p class="parent"/><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"/><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"/><span class="deepthread"><a href="/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n36og">continue this thread</a></span><ul class="flat-list buttons"/></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n304f odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n304f"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/utchemfan" class="author gray id-t2_60hfk">utchemfan</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(8 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/utchemfan" class="author id-t2_60hfk">utchemfan</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n304fc3k"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Morality is arbitrary, so yes, if we as a society decided that slavery would be ok, it would be. That was certainly the case for most of humanity's existence.</p>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n304f" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n2w3p" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n304f" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n31vb odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n31vb"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Zerkabaius" class="author gray id-t2_3rrov">Zerkabaius</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-1 points</span><span class="score unvoted">0 points</span><span class="score likes">1 point</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(7 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Zerkabaius" class="author id-t2_3rrov">Zerkabaius</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-1 points</span><span class="score unvoted">0 points</span><span class="score likes">1 point</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n31vbgly"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>So if the majority of the US agrees that marijuana is morally bad, then we can all agree that marijuana is bad right?</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n31vb" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n304f" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n31vb" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n332k odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n332k"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/utchemfan" class="author gray id-t2_60hfk">utchemfan</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(6 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/utchemfan" class="author id-t2_60hfk">utchemfan</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n332k4in"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Society is generally in agreement that marijuana is bad. The challenge is in changing that moral stance.</p>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n332k" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n31vb" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n332k" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n34av odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n34av"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Zerkabaius" class="author gray id-t2_3rrov">Zerkabaius</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(5 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Zerkabaius" class="author id-t2_3rrov">Zerkabaius</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n34avtsv"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>but why try to change it when we can all agree that it is morally bad? Why would we ever want to change morally good things to morally bad things?</p>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n34av" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n332k" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n34av" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n35hn morerecursion"><p class="parent"/><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"/><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"/><span class="deepthread"><a href="/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n34av">continue this thread</a></span><ul class="flat-list buttons"/></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n30ad even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n30ad"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/newacount" class="author gray id-t2_4ad5q">newacount</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(6 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/newacount" class="author id-t2_4ad5q">newacount</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n30adp7j"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>It was at the time, pretty much like how war is OK today, or hunting animals for fun.</p>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n30ad" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n2w3p" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n30ad" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n313k even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n313k"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Zerkabaius" class="author gray id-t2_3rrov">Zerkabaius</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-1 points</span><span class="score unvoted">0 points</span><span class="score likes">1 point</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(5 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Zerkabaius" class="author id-t2_3rrov">Zerkabaius</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-1 points</span><span class="score unvoted">0 points</span><span class="score likes">1 point</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n313kgq4"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>but does that make it right? Is there ever a right time for genocide/rape/murder? As long as the majority of people agree it is fine? And is this majority, the majority of a city, nation, world?</p>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n313k" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n30ad" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n313k" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n331u even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n331u"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/newacount" class="author gray id-t2_4ad5q">newacount</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(4 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/newacount" class="author id-t2_4ad5q">newacount</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n331usz4"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Human population. We judge wrong and right by what is most comfortable to us. A few decades ago people would not even believe that gays existed. Or the fact that a husband can rape a wife. Or few centuries back that blacks were human.</p>
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+ <p>Most of wrong/rights good/bad are human construct, and they do not exist in nature. Heck, there was a time humans did not exist. The Constitution (+its amendment) is a great achievement of our time, recognizing the progress we have made from barbaric time. To just belittle it by saying that it doesn't matters a shit and all human being have natural right, is stupidest argument I have seen making rounds of Reddit.</p>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n331u" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n313k" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n331u" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n35j2 even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n35j2"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Zerkabaius" class="author gray id-t2_3rrov">Zerkabaius</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(3 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Zerkabaius" class="author id-t2_3rrov">Zerkabaius</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n35j2hu5"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>A triangle doesn't exist in nature yet we still make sense of it and yet the laws of a triangle apply even if we aren't aware of them. Is murder ok if no one finds out about it? </p>
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+ <p>As far as your second part,either I'm misreading it or you think I am dissing the constitution by saying that the founding fathers view us as having natural rights?</p>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n35j2" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n331u" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n35j2" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n386t morerecursion"><p class="parent"/><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"/><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"/><span class="deepthread"><a href="/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n35j2">continue this thread</a></span><ul class="flat-list buttons"/></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n2un2 odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n2un2"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/hackinthebochs" class="author gray id-t2_356bi">hackinthebochs</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(5 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/hackinthebochs" class="author id-t2_356bi">hackinthebochs</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n2un2yqj"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p><em>In our natural state</em>, yes might makes right. That is the only natural law of the world. We as rational beings decided that living in this state is sub optimal and that we would get together to form a society based on certain rules. Within this society we have rules such as kill, rape, etc is wrong and punishable by society at large. The moment you step out of society though, might makes right applies again. This is why laws of society don't apply when fighting wars or acquiring land to grow your society.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n2un2" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n26x5" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n2un2" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n2wvo even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n2wvo"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Zerkabaius" class="author gray id-t2_3rrov">Zerkabaius</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(4 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Zerkabaius" class="author id-t2_3rrov">Zerkabaius</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n2wvohl5"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Maybe if you prescribed to a Hobbesian philosophy as pretty much every other philosopher disagrees with him.</p>
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+
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+ <p>I like Hume on this point in that it is pointless to talk about this "natural state" because humans have always been in society</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n2wvo" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n2un2" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n2wvo" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n2y3m even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n2y3m"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/hackinthebochs" class="author gray id-t2_356bi">hackinthebochs</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(3 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/hackinthebochs" class="author id-t2_356bi">hackinthebochs</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n2y3mfqn"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Yes, humans have always been in a society of some sort. But whatever morality they extended to members of society never extended to other humans. This society-based social contract view of rights is more in line with human history.</p>
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+
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+ <p>Also, humans are simply animals. Thus it makes sense to speak of the natural state. We are not somehow independent of our pre-society nature.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n2y3m" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n2wvo" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n2y3m" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n32zh even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n32zh"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Zerkabaius" class="author gray id-t2_3rrov">Zerkabaius</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-1 points</span><span class="score unvoted">0 points</span><span class="score likes">1 point</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(2 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Zerkabaius" class="author id-t2_3rrov">Zerkabaius</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-1 points</span><span class="score unvoted">0 points</span><span class="score likes">1 point</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n32zhte1"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><blockquote>
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+ <p>Yes, humans have always been in a society of some sort</p>
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+ </blockquote>
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+
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+ <p>and </p>
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+
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+ <blockquote>
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+ <p>We are not somehow independent of our pre-society nature.</p>
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+ </blockquote>
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+
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+ <p>seem contradictory unless I'm misreading</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n32zh" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n2y3m" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n32zh" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n36gv even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n36gv"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/hackinthebochs" class="author gray id-t2_356bi">hackinthebochs</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(1 child)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/hackinthebochs" class="author id-t2_356bi">hackinthebochs</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n36gvxs7"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>What I'm getting at is that there is no line between pre-human and human. Thus there was a time in our history that we were pre-society (even if we, in hindsight, would describe that as pre-human). At some point our ancestors decided to derive a framework with which to form a society. Thus we can rightfully consider the "natural state" in regards to us.</p>
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+
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+ <p>(I'm not downvoting you btw)</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n36gv" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n32zh" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n36gv" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n38ln even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n38ln"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Zerkabaius" class="author gray id-t2_3rrov">Zerkabaius</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Zerkabaius" class="author id-t2_3rrov">Zerkabaius</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n38lns0n"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>thanks for not downvoting lol!</p>
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+
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+ <p>I think that natural state is still involved some type of society whether it was a very basic society that was made up of just one family. Even if this is the case, that doesn't change morality or how it functions. If there are moral truths then they do not change whether the society is 6 people or 6 billion</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n38ln" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n36gv" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n2zy7 even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n2zy7"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/quikjl" class="author gray id-t2_4ox1g">quikjl</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-1 points</span><span class="score unvoted">0 points</span><span class="score likes">1 point</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/quikjl" class="author id-t2_4ox1g">quikjl</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-1 points</span><span class="score unvoted">0 points</span><span class="score likes">1 point</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n2zy7lu7"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>the comments section in r/politics is often a tiny notch above that in youtube comments.</p>
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+
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+ <p>this is NOT the place to take downvotes too seriously, my man. I say this in support, not ridicule. You seem like one of the few in this thread who remember anything at all from civics or politics classes.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n2zy7" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n26x5" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n3dit odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n3dit"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/NeoPlatonist" class="author gray submitter id-t2_6rasj">NeoPlatonist</a><span class="userattrs">[<a class="submitter" title="submitter" href="/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/">S</a>]</span> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/NeoPlatonist" class="author submitter id-t2_6rasj">NeoPlatonist</a><span class="userattrs">[<a class="submitter" title="submitter" href="/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/">S</a>]</span> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n3ditdx6"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>CIA and DHS bots are responding to Anti-Iran and Pro-Constitution posts. They can get top replies but can't keep a rising post down.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n3dit" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n26x5" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n2htx odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n2htx"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Infinitezen" class="author gray id-t2_417l9">Infinitezen</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">3 points</span><span class="score unvoted">4 points</span><span class="score likes">5 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(2 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Infinitezen" class="author id-t2_417l9">Infinitezen</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">3 points</span><span class="score unvoted">4 points</span><span class="score likes">5 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n2htxbtb"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Ideas were/are important, sure, but ultimately we had back it up with wars, empower our economy through slavery and theft of land from native peoples, and then apply a neo-colonialist set of policies which greatly enriched our nation. When Ideas alone are enough to ensure rights, I might be as happy as everyone else, but "right" is such a subjective abstraction. I know the rape/kill/enslave thing is a tough pill to swallow, and I personally wouldn't call those things "right", but that is just the nature of the planet we live on, unfortunately. I'd like to believe in mankind's higher potential, I certainly know it exists, but our evolution has not quite reached its zenith in this regard.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n2htx" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n26x5" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n2htx" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n2via even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n2via"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Zerkabaius" class="author gray id-t2_3rrov">Zerkabaius</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Zerkabaius" class="author id-t2_3rrov">Zerkabaius</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n2via861"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Ideas will never be enough to ensure rights and if the prevailing attitudes out there that ideas and rights can't be understood then we have a hard time making any progress. You say you believe in mankinds higher potential. What do you mean by that? Do you mean a higher idea? I don't we can go super saiyan any time soon,</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n2via" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n2htx" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n37xl odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n37xl"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/AlexisDeTocqueville" class="author gray id-t2_404mo">AlexisDeTocqueville</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/AlexisDeTocqueville" class="author id-t2_404mo">AlexisDeTocqueville</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n37xlfxh"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>The idea that America was powerful because of exploitation rather than in spite of it is absurd. Look at the conditions humans lived in through the greater part of history. Exploitation and oppression was rampant, but no one ever really improved their standard of living. Then 300 years ago, liberalism and capitalism hit Northern Europe, and all of a sudden the average standard of living takes off like a rocket. It wasn't the exploitation and oppression that changed, it was the adoption of commercial and creative life.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n37xl" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n2htx" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n2x6a even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n2x6a"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/antiproton" class="author gray id-t2_3277m">antiproton</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-1 points</span><span class="score unvoted">0 points</span><span class="score likes">1 point</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(1 child)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/antiproton" class="author id-t2_3277m">antiproton</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-1 points</span><span class="score unvoted">0 points</span><span class="score likes">1 point</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n2x6anxt"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Your idealistic naivete is adorable. </p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n2x6a" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n26x5" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n2x6a" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n3291 odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n3291"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Zerkabaius" class="author gray id-t2_3rrov">Zerkabaius</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-1 points</span><span class="score unvoted">0 points</span><span class="score likes">1 point</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Zerkabaius" class="author id-t2_3rrov">Zerkabaius</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-1 points</span><span class="score unvoted">0 points</span><span class="score likes">1 point</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n3291hn0"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>your condescension and utter lack of thought reply shows your maturity... I'm guessing 12?</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n3291" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n2x6a" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n2dbo even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n2dbo"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/TheColorOfTheFire" class="author gray id-t2_6jarp">TheColorOfTheFire</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-1 points</span><span class="score unvoted">0 points</span><span class="score likes">1 point</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(1 child)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/TheColorOfTheFire" class="author id-t2_6jarp">TheColorOfTheFire</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-1 points</span><span class="score unvoted">0 points</span><span class="score likes">1 point</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n2dbo63u"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><blockquote>
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+ <p>Might doesn't make right, ladies and gentlemen, it just makes right now.</p>
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+ </blockquote>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n2dbo" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n0g1g" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n2dbo" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n2igm even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n2igm"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Infinitezen" class="author gray id-t2_417l9">Infinitezen</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Infinitezen" class="author id-t2_417l9">Infinitezen</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n2igmkj6"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Right now is often what is most important. The past and the future are abstractions, which have importance, until you have a gun to your head (or any life or death right now kind of situation).</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n2igm" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n2dbo" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n36zd odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n36zd"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Soupstorm" class="author gray id-t2_36vjl">Soupstorm</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Soupstorm" class="author id-t2_36vjl">Soupstorm</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n36zduv9"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><blockquote>
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+ <p>Might makes right, and it pretty much always has.</p>
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+ </blockquote>
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+
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+ <p>This is fallacious logic. That doesn't make it the best solution, it's just what worked well enough for the world to not destroy itself. Remember that the human body evolved with converged digestive and respiratory tracts, which is completely retarded.</p>
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+
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+ <p>So, conversely: Platitudes like "might makes right" might make fuzzy feelings for the mighty, but the face of human history shows us exactly how much suffering that line of reasoning can bring.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n36zd" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n0g1g" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n3d6t even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n3d6t"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/NeoPlatonist" class="author gray submitter id-t2_6rasj">NeoPlatonist</a><span class="userattrs">[<a class="submitter" title="submitter" href="/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/">S</a>]</span> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/NeoPlatonist" class="author submitter id-t2_6rasj">NeoPlatonist</a><span class="userattrs">[<a class="submitter" title="submitter" href="/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/">S</a>]</span> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n3d6tkib"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Might makes right. That's why we have the rights. The people revolted against rights suppressors.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n3d6t" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n0g1g" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n203g odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n203g"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/quikjl" class="author gray id-t2_4ox1g">quikjl</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(3 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/quikjl" class="author id-t2_4ox1g">quikjl</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n203gokg"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>you aren't really saying anything at all here, if we apply logic to the text you typed.</p>
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+
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+ <p>more interesting, though, is how the founding fathers wrote explicitly that "freedom existed before governments" existed, therefore we have to protect individuals from tyranny because of rights that are self-evident.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n203g" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n0g1g" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n203g" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n3kro even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n3kro"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/notanidiot" class="author gray id-t2_363a2">notanidiot</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/notanidiot" class="author id-t2_363a2">notanidiot</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n3krobz9"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Yes freedom existed before government but it was chaos. People were free to rape, steal, kill... yada yada. Tyranny can only be avoided by ensuring that the system is as Democratic as technologically possible. The people must decide what their rights are and adapt with the times or to battle forces trying to game the system to become tyrants.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n3kro" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n203g" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n2irx even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n2irx"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Infinitezen" class="author gray id-t2_417l9">Infinitezen</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-1 points</span><span class="score likes">0 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(1 child)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Infinitezen" class="author id-t2_417l9">Infinitezen</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-1 points</span><span class="score likes">0 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n2irxdfm"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>So I am wrong, and logic will defeat my arguments, but that's boring huh? Try winning a formal debate like that :)</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n2irx" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n203g" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n2irx" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n2msy even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n2msy"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/quikjl" class="author gray id-t2_4ox1g">quikjl</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-5 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-4 points</span><span class="score likes">-3 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/quikjl" class="author id-t2_4ox1g">quikjl</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-5 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-4 points</span><span class="score likes">-3 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n2msyxkd"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>I don't think anyone knows what you are talking about at this point. You just seem mad.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n2msy" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n2irx" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n0l51 even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n0l51"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Bazing1980" class="author gray id-t2_5k0d0">Bazing1980</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-3 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-2 points</span><span class="score likes">-1 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Bazing1980" class="author id-t2_5k0d0">Bazing1980</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-3 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-2 points</span><span class="score likes">-1 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n0l51pk2"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>I applaud this practical outlook. All of this fetishizing the constitution is odd to me. </p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n0l51" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n0g1g" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n2ii9 odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n2ii9"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/bcra00" class="author gray id-t2_6t8q9">bcra00</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-1 points</span><span class="score likes">0 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(3 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/bcra00" class="author id-t2_6t8q9">bcra00</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-1 points</span><span class="score likes">0 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n2ii958a"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>This actually is part of human history. The Constitution was as important as the industrial revolution or the internet. There's a reason our fledging government was called "The Grand Experiment." This form of government had never been done before.</p>
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+
395
+ <p>The Constitution is the antidote for "might makes right" and as the original poster alludes to, the Constitution and the BoR protect inalienable rights from the tyranny of the mighty majority.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n2ii9" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n0g1g" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n2ii9" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n30r5 even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n30r5"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Flarelocke" class="author gray id-t2_3k3y0">Flarelocke</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(2 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Flarelocke" class="author id-t2_3k3y0">Flarelocke</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n30r58cl"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Every notion of legitimacy is an antidote to "might makes right". That still doesn't give anyone much reason to believe in this particular one.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n30r5" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n2ii9" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n30r5" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n35a1 odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n35a1"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/bcra00" class="author gray id-t2_6t8q9">bcra00</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(1 child)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/bcra00" class="author id-t2_6t8q9">bcra00</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n35a1jsb"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Nation or notion? If you meant notion, I'm not sure what you mean. If you meant nation, I'm not sure what you mean by "legitimacy" or what a legitimate nation is.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n35a1" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n30r5" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n35a1" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n3h3u even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n3h3u"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Flarelocke" class="author gray id-t2_3k3y0">Flarelocke</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Flarelocke" class="author id-t2_3k3y0">Flarelocke</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n3h3u0dn"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Notion. Historically some nations had concepts like the divine right of kings, which drastically limited the number of people who could rule (i.e. royalty). Nowadays we use constitutionality or democracy for the same thing. These three are all notions of legitimacy.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n3h3u" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n35a1" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n1mmq odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n1mmq"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/knaka1" class="author gray id-t2_6sayp">knaka1</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-5 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-4 points</span><span class="score likes">-3 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(1 child)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/knaka1" class="author id-t2_6sayp">knaka1</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-5 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-4 points</span><span class="score likes">-3 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n1mmqldb"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Yes, they are in face of human history, but we have to put on a face and aim for these platitudes or else what would we strive for, I mean human life is pretty meaningless, so we have to give it meaning for ourselves or else why not just kill yourself. On a lighter note have you heard of <a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/EnoughObamaSpam" rel="nofollow">r/enoughobamaspam</a>.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n1mmq" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n0g1g" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n1mmq" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n2k8f even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n2k8f"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Infinitezen" class="author gray id-t2_417l9">Infinitezen</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Infinitezen" class="author id-t2_417l9">Infinitezen</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n2k8fwrn"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>We certainly should aim for higher ideals, but we need to keep one foot on the ground in doing so to have any chance. I hadn't heard of that sub but I certainly think Obama is an interesting extrapolation of an aspect of this argument, mainly pragmatism vs idealism. Obama ran a campaign of Idealism, but has governed in a highly pragmatic fashion in order (some would say) to keep the reins of power away from people would do worse things than he has. If he does win a second term (i believe the odds favor it) I hope he seizes the chance to try and fight a more deep ideological battle and hopefully do more good than he has this first four years.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n2k8f" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n1mmq" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n01j0 odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n01j0"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/shreekingeels" class="author gray id-t2_6o6zj">shreekingeels</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">7 points</span><span class="score unvoted">8 points</span><span class="score likes">9 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(14 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/shreekingeels" class="author id-t2_6o6zj">shreekingeels</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">7 points</span><span class="score unvoted">8 points</span><span class="score likes">9 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n01j0wuq"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Devils Advocate: where do birth rights come from?</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n01j0" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n01j0" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n0dy4 even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n0dy4"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Guy_Dudebro" class="author gray id-t2_4zdzl">Guy_Dudebro</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">6 points</span><span class="score unvoted">7 points</span><span class="score likes">8 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Guy_Dudebro" class="author id-t2_4zdzl">Guy_Dudebro</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">6 points</span><span class="score unvoted">7 points</span><span class="score likes">8 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n0dy4cz1"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Universally true. Accessible to reason. Defended by arms.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n0dy4" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n01j0" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n0sfg odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n0sfg"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/docwyoming" class="author gray id-t2_5p7uv">docwyoming</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">5 points</span><span class="score unvoted">6 points</span><span class="score likes">7 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(5 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/docwyoming" class="author id-t2_5p7uv">docwyoming</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">5 points</span><span class="score unvoted">6 points</span><span class="score likes">7 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n0sfgx5z"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>No one is born with rights either. Right do not exist without responsibilities. For you to have a right to life, others must take the responsibilty to not do harm to you. And vice versa. </p>
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+
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+ <p>That's it. That's reality. </p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n0sfg" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n01j0" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n0sfg" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n14t1 even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n14t1"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Guy_Dudebro" class="author gray id-t2_4zdzl">Guy_Dudebro</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">3 points</span><span class="score likes">4 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Guy_Dudebro" class="author id-t2_4zdzl">Guy_Dudebro</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">3 points</span><span class="score likes">4 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n14t1694"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Yes, probably any valid natural right can also be defined as an immunity to interference.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n14t1" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n0sfg" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n2l7e odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n2l7e"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/bcra00" class="author gray id-t2_6t8q9">bcra00</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-1 points</span><span class="score likes">0 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(3 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/bcra00" class="author id-t2_6t8q9">bcra00</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-1 points</span><span class="score likes">0 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n2l7evod"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>That's other people infringing are your right. You still have the right, it's just not protected or enforced (and therefore meaningless, which I guess is really your point).</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n2l7e" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n0sfg" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n2l7e" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n2vkh even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n2vkh"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/hackinthebochs" class="author gray id-t2_356bi">hackinthebochs</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(2 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/hackinthebochs" class="author id-t2_356bi">hackinthebochs</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n2vkhmta"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>The point is that the word "right" is meaningless outside of the context of some framework that entails behaviors onto other people. It makes no sense to say a tree has a right to live if there is no framework that endows others with a responsibility not to chop it down.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n2vkh" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n2l7e" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n2vkh" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n314m odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n314m"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/bcra00" class="author gray id-t2_6t8q9">bcra00</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-1 points</span><span class="score unvoted">0 points</span><span class="score likes">1 point</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(1 child)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/bcra00" class="author id-t2_6t8q9">bcra00</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-1 points</span><span class="score unvoted">0 points</span><span class="score likes">1 point</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n314m4ww"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>I agree that the right is unenforceable without a framework; I don't believe that makes a right meaningless. For instance, women in Afghanistan have a right not to be treated like chattel, but that nation (and the international community) is doing a shit job at enforcing that right. That doesn't diminish the importance of that right, or even take the right away.</p>
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+
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+ <p>Maybe what I'm saying is a difference without a distinction, but that's my two cents.</p>
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+
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+ <p>Also, this isn't necessarily the purpose of the Constitution. The Constitution is a chain on government, not a grant of rights or freedom to citizens. We have freedom and rights by existing. Government provides structure to enforce those rights. The Constitution tells enumerates what powers the government has, and enumerates what the government is specifically prohibited from doing.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n314m" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n2vkh" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n314m" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n349e even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n349e"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/hackinthebochs" class="author gray id-t2_356bi">hackinthebochs</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/hackinthebochs" class="author id-t2_356bi">hackinthebochs</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n349e5bx"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>I think our disagreement is really just about terminology. I agree that women in Afghanistan have an interest in not being treated like chattel, and that it is our moral responsibility not to treat them as such. To say that this is a "natural right" (and thus everyone has a "natural responsibility") is a stretch to me. A "right" and a responsibility are inherently connected. </p>
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+
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+ <p>I do get the idea of one having an interest in not X, and in their natural state they are not X, thus they have a "natural right" not to be X. I guess just don't like the word "right" as a description of this relationship.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n349e" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n314m" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n1y10 odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n1y10"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/rubberstuntbaby" class="author gray id-t2_6102b">rubberstuntbaby</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(1 child)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/rubberstuntbaby" class="author id-t2_6102b">rubberstuntbaby</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n1y10g8j"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Rights come from the principle of equality before the law. If we are equal then if anyone is allowed to speak then everyone must be allowed to speak. Rights are just the logical extension of equality.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n1y10" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n01j0" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n1y10" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n2yi5 even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n2yi5"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/NolFito" class="author gray id-t2_43cgq">NolFito</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-1 points</span><span class="score unvoted">0 points</span><span class="score likes">1 point</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/NolFito" class="author id-t2_43cgq">NolFito</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-1 points</span><span class="score unvoted">0 points</span><span class="score likes">1 point</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n2yi5x83"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Although I like the premise of this line of argument, I find fault with how it's been applied. "if anyone is allowed to speak then everyone must be allowed to speak" essentially means someone, somewhere has given me that permission to talk, and just as it has been granted it can be taken away.</p>
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+
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+ <p>I know this may lead to an ad infinitum line of argument, but where does the principle of equality originate?</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n2yi5" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n1y10" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n080e odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n080e"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted" style="display:none"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/NeoPlatonist" class="author gray submitter id-t2_6rasj">NeoPlatonist</a><span class="userattrs">[<a class="submitter" title="submitter" href="/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/">S</a>]</span> comment score below threshold  <a href="#" class="expand">(3 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed" style="display:none"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/NeoPlatonist" class="author submitter id-t2_6rasj">NeoPlatonist</a><span class="userattrs">[<a class="submitter" title="submitter" href="/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/">S</a>]</span> <span class="score dislikes">-8 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-7 points</span><span class="score likes">-6 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n080evrh"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Doesn't matter where they come from. The Constitution that this country was formed on and every member of the military is sworn to uphold says you are born with them.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n080e" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n01j0" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child" style="display:none"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n080e" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n0b85 even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n0b85"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/shreekingeels" class="author gray id-t2_6o6zj">shreekingeels</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">8 points</span><span class="score unvoted">9 points</span><span class="score likes">10 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/shreekingeels" class="author id-t2_6o6zj">shreekingeels</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">8 points</span><span class="score unvoted">9 points</span><span class="score likes">10 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n0b85a5k"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>The point of this thread is that The Constitution is meant to protect them, not give them. Asserting that the Constitution says they are "birth rights", w/o specifying where they come from implies that the Constitution is giving them.</p>
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+
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+ <p>Lets compare:
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+ "You are born w/ certain rights"
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+ vs
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+ "You are born w/ certain rights, b/c god/science/decency says so"</p>
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+
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+ <p>Which one is protecting by self ratification and which is outsourcing to a different origin?
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+ I quote verbatim:
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+ " The Bill of Rights does not 'give' you rights; you and all men are <em>born</em> with rights. The Bill of Rights was meant to stop the Government from <em>infringing</em> on your rights"</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n0b85" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n080e" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n0iwo odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n0iwo"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Tatertot-pie" class="author gray id-t2_6g3ty">Tatertot-pie</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-3 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-2 points</span><span class="score likes">-1 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(1 child)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Tatertot-pie" class="author id-t2_6g3ty">Tatertot-pie</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-3 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-2 points</span><span class="score likes">-1 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n0iwoe6l"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Why the fuck are people down voting the comment above? If you do this, fuck you (or at least explain your reasoning). </p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n0iwo" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n080e" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n0iwo" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n10rs even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n10rs"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/WheresMyElephant" class="author gray id-t2_4b2y4">WheresMyElephant</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">3 points</span><span class="score unvoted">4 points</span><span class="score likes">5 points</span> ago<em>*</em>   <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/WheresMyElephant" class="author id-t2_4b2y4">WheresMyElephant</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">3 points</span><span class="score unvoted">4 points</span><span class="score likes">5 points</span> ago<em>*</em> </p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n10rs8xs"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>I didn't downvote but if I had, it would be because OP is not the sole arbiter of what "matters." If he had carefully defined the context of this discussion then that would be one thing, but he's just making broad absolute statements and then insinuating that people are unpatriotic if they don't express unqualified agreement. </p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n10rs" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n0iwo" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3mymjn even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3mymjn"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/EmilyGR" class="author gray id-t2_5uyd5">EmilyGR</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">11 points</span><span class="score unvoted">12 points</span><span class="score likes">13 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(6 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/EmilyGR" class="author id-t2_5uyd5">EmilyGR</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">11 points</span><span class="score unvoted">12 points</span><span class="score likes">13 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3mymjnf9r"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Except slaves.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3mymjn" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3mymjn" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n0cq8 odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n0cq8"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/hobiedallas" class="author gray id-t2_5i60o">hobiedallas</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">14 points</span><span class="score unvoted">15 points</span><span class="score likes">16 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(3 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/hobiedallas" class="author id-t2_5i60o">hobiedallas</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">14 points</span><span class="score unvoted">15 points</span><span class="score likes">16 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n0cq8crq"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>and women</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n0cq8" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3mymjn" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n0cq8" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n1mnq odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n1mnq"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/bearskinrug" class="author gray id-t2_5rd5j">bearskinrug</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/bearskinrug" class="author id-t2_5rd5j">bearskinrug</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n1mnqn19"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>And slave women</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n1mnq" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n0cq8" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n20z8 odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n20z8"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/quikjl" class="author gray id-t2_4ox1g">quikjl</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-1 points</span><span class="score unvoted">0 points</span><span class="score likes">1 point</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(1 child)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/quikjl" class="author id-t2_4ox1g">quikjl</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-1 points</span><span class="score unvoted">0 points</span><span class="score likes">1 point</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n20z8jx8"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>jefferson tried to get anti-slavery into constitution, but conservatives of the day were opposed to his efforts. </p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n20z8" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3mymjn" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n20z8" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n3mb9 even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n3mb9"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/FuckingMeanBitch" class="author gray id-t2_51qki">FuckingMeanBitch</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/FuckingMeanBitch" class="author id-t2_51qki">FuckingMeanBitch</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n3mb9okx"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Maybe he should have started by freeing his own slaves.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n3mb9" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n20z8" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n1ans odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n1ans"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/ardent_stalinist" class="author gray id-t2_3sibh">ardent_stalinist</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">3 points</span><span class="score unvoted">4 points</span><span class="score likes">5 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(1 child)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/ardent_stalinist" class="author id-t2_3sibh">ardent_stalinist</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">3 points</span><span class="score unvoted">4 points</span><span class="score likes">5 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n1ansj15"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Just men, huh?</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n1ans" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n1ans" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n1r90 even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n1r90"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/ZMeson" class="author gray id-t2_32cr8">ZMeson</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">3 points</span><span class="score unvoted">4 points</span><span class="score likes">5 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/ZMeson" class="author id-t2_32cr8">ZMeson</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">3 points</span><span class="score unvoted">4 points</span><span class="score likes">5 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n1r90uk2"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Yep. And don't forget that slaves aren't really men.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n1r90" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n1ans" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n1fqm even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n1fqm"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/maxwellhansen" class="author gray id-t2_5zwst">maxwellhansen</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">3 points</span><span class="score likes">4 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/maxwellhansen" class="author id-t2_5zwst">maxwellhansen</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">3 points</span><span class="score likes">4 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n1fqmoso"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>That is because of the specific kind of Christianity common at the time that taught that all men are endowed by their creator with certain unalienable rights. Most modern human rights proponents do not base their belief in things such as freedom of speech on that old religion. </p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n1fqm" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n2bgq odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n2bgq"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Willravel" class="author gray id-t2_31guv">Willravel</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">3 points</span><span class="score likes">4 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Willravel" class="author id-t2_31guv">Willravel</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">3 points</span><span class="score likes">4 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n2bgqnu2"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Who told you we are all burn with rights, and what evidence did he or she supply? </p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n2bgq" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3myk6y even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3myk6y"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/pelicansurf123" class="author gray id-t2_6gdrw">pelicansurf123</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">4 points</span><span class="score unvoted">5 points</span><span class="score likes">6 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/pelicansurf123" class="author id-t2_6gdrw">pelicansurf123</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">4 points</span><span class="score unvoted">5 points</span><span class="score likes">6 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3myk6y745"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Thank you sir, so much.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3myk6y" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n0ahh odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n0ahh"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/wrc-wolf" class="author gray id-t2_3nted">wrc-wolf</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">5 points</span><span class="score unvoted">6 points</span><span class="score likes">7 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/wrc-wolf" class="author id-t2_3nted">wrc-wolf</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">5 points</span><span class="score unvoted">6 points</span><span class="score likes">7 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n0ahh9tx"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>NeoPlatonist, we need to clear up some things about reality. You are not 'born' with any rights. The only rights you enjoy are the ones you or your ancestors FOUGHT for - and occasionally you have to fight to keep, or even retake, them.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n0ahh" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3mz6t8 even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3mz6t8"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Devvils" class="author gray id-t2_66ru1">Devvils</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">3 points</span><span class="score likes">4 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(1 child)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Devvils" class="author id-t2_66ru1">Devvils</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">3 points</span><span class="score likes">4 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3mz6t82n6"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Some basic rights are given in the UN Universal Declaration of Human Rights
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+ <a href="http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/">http://www.un.org/en/documents/udhr/</a></p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3mz6t8" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3mz6t8" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n14l3 even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n14l3"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/MichiganDifference" class="author gray id-t2_69rwf">MichiganDifference</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-1 points</span><span class="score likes">0 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/MichiganDifference" class="author id-t2_69rwf">MichiganDifference</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-1 points</span><span class="score likes">0 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n14l3g42"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Which is meaningless without a mechanism to guarantee them. Might as well say that Martians have rights.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n14l3" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3mz6t8" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n28x7 odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n28x7"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Tartantyco" class="author gray id-t2_3tgsy">Tartantyco</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Tartantyco" class="author id-t2_3tgsy">Tartantyco</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n28x7j23"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>OP is an idiot. Seriously.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n28x7" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n2q4j odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n2q4j"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/windwolfone" class="author gray id-t2_69oxd">windwolfone</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/windwolfone" class="author id-t2_69oxd">windwolfone</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n2q4jsdy"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Thanks for reminding us this!</p>
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+
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+ <p>Of course you don't have a right to clean air or water in the Libtard/Rethug world.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n2q4j" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n2uy0 even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n2uy0"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/fuzzymatter" class="author gray id-t2_3nxmg">fuzzymatter</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/fuzzymatter" class="author id-t2_3nxmg">fuzzymatter</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n2uy0ot9"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>OP: I'm sure you meant to say that all people, not just men, are born with rights.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n2uy0" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n38o0 odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n38o0"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/AlexisDeTocqueville" class="author gray id-t2_404mo">AlexisDeTocqueville</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/AlexisDeTocqueville" class="author id-t2_404mo">AlexisDeTocqueville</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n38o0v33"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>I don't really care for the word "rights" so much as I do for the word "liberty."</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n38o0" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n3gpu even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n3gpu"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/notanidiot" class="author gray id-t2_363a2">notanidiot</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/notanidiot" class="author id-t2_363a2">notanidiot</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n3gpuiyj"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Who says we're born with those rights? The bible certainly doesn't grant us freedom of speech, nor do our parents. We believe it because the constitution says so. So either the constitution is a religion or it gives those rights .</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n3gpu" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n3l9w odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n3l9w"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/valeenager" class="author gray id-t2_6gwox">valeenager</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/valeenager" class="author id-t2_6gwox">valeenager</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n3l9w7dx"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>you know this actually brings up an interesting thought. what says that you were born with rights? what specifically makes us think that we should be able to say and do whatever we want simply because we were born? I have noticed that it is the natural human condition to rebel, no matter what the norm is. but as far as I can tell, we simply proclaim that we have can do and say whatever we want and VOILA, it is so. whatever happened to earning your rights? earning your rights through social responsibility and duty to be heard? thoughts?</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n3l9w" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n3nqh even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n3nqh"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/nonrate" class="author gray id-t2_3fdxg">nonrate</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/nonrate" class="author id-t2_3fdxg">nonrate</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n3nqh97g"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>If only redditors could view the second amendment the same way.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n3nqh" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3mzaqe odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3mzaqe"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/boyubout2pissmeoff" class="author gray id-t2_5xqjw">boyubout2pissmeoff</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-1 points</span><span class="score likes">0 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(5 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/boyubout2pissmeoff" class="author id-t2_5xqjw">boyubout2pissmeoff</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-1 points</span><span class="score likes">0 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3mzaqe2xu"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Actually, the entire notion that the universe (your "Creator") gives you ("endows" you) with <em>anything</em>, is completely absurd. Much like myself, the universe doesn't give two blind stinking shits about you. You come into it with nothing, you live your unique and never-to-be-repeated-for-all-eternity life, and then you leave, only to experience nothingness forever more. At no time during this great conflagration does the universe give you anything. These "rights" you speak of are just man made inventions, cooked up to give you a sense that you are (A) entitled to something, (B) favored by your "creator", and (C) make you feel the need to spread the disease to societies built on a different set of lies than your own (Vietnam, Afghanistan, Iraq, Iran....). </p>
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+
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+ <p>The truly glorious part however, is that you erect all this fantasy about "rights" and then you concoct some huge conspiracy wherein certain parties are constantly attempting to "erode" these rights. So right away you diseased creatures set yourselves up with the eternal conflict that you need. Your truth-hating minds are so caught up in this nonsense that you can never see that the "erosion" is simply your society's auto-immune reaction to your own constant <em>abuse</em> of the "rights" you invented. You idiotic freaks have had thousands upon thousands of years of civilization to learn to live with each other in peace and harmony. But no, you can't do that. You can't even exist for 5 minutes without someone somewhere causing trouble, and then you wonder why you find yourselves living in a surveillance society where your every move is tracked. And never - at no time - will you ever look at yourselves as the root cause of this alleged erosion. No no, that's happening because of the conspiracy. It's never <em>you</em>. It's always <em>them</em>. </p>
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+
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+ <p>If you were even half as smart as you think you are, there wouldn't be any need whatsoever for anything called a "constitution", or a "bill of rights", or a "declaration of independence", or <em>any</em> written document full of rules and regulations for that matter.</p>
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+
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+ <p>Fortunately for us truth-loving superiors (the 0.0000000000000000000000000001%'ers), the result of all this is that we get to watch you diseased creatures rape rob and murder each other until you finally wind up destroying yourselves in the Armageddon you so richly deserve. </p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3mzaqe" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3mzaqe" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3mzm2v even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3mzm2v"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Dichotomy01" class="author gray id-t2_5m4k9">Dichotomy01</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Dichotomy01" class="author id-t2_5m4k9">Dichotomy01</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3mzm2vslm"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>And yet somehow that fucked up document led to a government that helped create the internet where you could make this point. It was good for something. I agree with you in one respect because, to counter the OP's assertion, the word "born" never appears in the document. </p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3mzm2v" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3mzaqe" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n0m04 odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n0m04"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Bazing1980" class="author gray id-t2_5k0d0">Bazing1980</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-3 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-2 points</span><span class="score likes">-1 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Bazing1980" class="author id-t2_5k0d0">Bazing1980</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-3 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-2 points</span><span class="score likes">-1 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n0m04g6q"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>I like you. </p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n0m04" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3mzaqe" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n04vu even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n04vu"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted" style="display:none"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/NeoPlatonist" class="author gray submitter id-t2_6rasj">NeoPlatonist</a><span class="userattrs">[<a class="submitter" title="submitter" href="/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/">S</a>]</span> comment score below threshold  <a href="#" class="expand">(2 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed" style="display:none"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/NeoPlatonist" class="author submitter id-t2_6rasj">NeoPlatonist</a><span class="userattrs">[<a class="submitter" title="submitter" href="/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/">S</a>]</span> <span class="score dislikes">-6 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-5 points</span><span class="score likes">-4 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n04vuxoh"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. — That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, — That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness.</p>
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+
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+ <p>The founding fathers actually didn't want to have a bill of rights, originally. Thomas Paine wrote in common sense that government is not the same as society, the former is a necessary evil at best and the latter is what all free man want.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n04vu" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3mzaqe" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child" style="display:none"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n04vu" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n0rb6 odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n0rb6"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/SecretAgentDaddy" class="author gray id-t2_5j6w2">SecretAgentDaddy</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">3 points</span><span class="score likes">4 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/SecretAgentDaddy" class="author id-t2_5j6w2">SecretAgentDaddy</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">3 points</span><span class="score likes">4 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n0rb63va"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><blockquote>
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+ <p>The founding fathers actually didn't want to have a bill of rights, originally. </p>
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+ </blockquote>
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+
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+ <p>Some clearly did.</p>
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+
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+ <p>Since we have it.</p>
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+
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+ <p>What you mean is that SOME Founding Fathers didn't want to have a Bill of Rights. They weren't some homogenous group of men that agreed on everything, and starting just about any sentence with "Well, the Founding Fathers..." is just misleading. There was debate, and compromise, and more debate.</p>
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+
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+ <p>Finally, as someone else pointed out, you keep quoting the Declaration of Independence. It's nice, and flows well, but the Creator isn't mentioned anywhere in the Constitution, and the DoI isn't the supreme law of the land. In a thread about the Constitution, I find it silly that you've quoted the Declaration of Independence 3 times in order to support your argument that the Constitution says X.</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n0rb6" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n04vu" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n13v7 even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n13v7"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/WilliamWolfe" class="author gray id-t2_6jqph">WilliamWolfe</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/WilliamWolfe" class="author id-t2_6jqph">WilliamWolfe</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n13v7o7o"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaa9iw85tW8" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gaa9iw85tW8</a></p>
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+
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+ <p>4:24</p>
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+ </div>
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+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n13v7" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n04vu" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n1614 even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n1614"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Palchez" class="author gray id-t2_385lt">Palchez</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(2 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Palchez" class="author id-t2_385lt">Palchez</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n1614lk4"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>The Constitution is a piece of paper.</p>
530
+ </div>
531
+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n1614" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n1614" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n2m0f odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n2m0f"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/RecycleThisMessage" class="author gray id-t2_4dpoq">RecycleThisMessage</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-1 points</span><span class="score likes">0 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/RecycleThisMessage" class="author id-t2_4dpoq">RecycleThisMessage</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-1 points</span><span class="score likes">0 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n2m0f9e4"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>So is your paycheck.</p>
532
+ </div>
533
+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n2m0f" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n1614" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n17kv odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n17kv"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/jackthornglas" class="author gray id-t2_3yr8a">jackthornglas</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/jackthornglas" class="author id-t2_3yr8a">jackthornglas</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">1 point</span><span class="score unvoted">2 points</span><span class="score likes">3 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n17kvfxt"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Yeah, but, not really. What is a "right"? What is its composition? Where is it located in space and time?</p>
534
+
535
+ <p>Really, rights are political constructs-- and useful ones, at that. We have the rights that we decide we want and can physically defend. </p>
536
+
537
+ <p>Also, all "men"? </p>
538
+ </div>
539
+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n17kv" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n2q8i even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n2q8i"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/SpackDaddy" class="author gray id-t2_5qwkf">SpackDaddy</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-1 points</span><span class="score unvoted">0 points</span><span class="score likes">1 point</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/SpackDaddy" class="author id-t2_5qwkf">SpackDaddy</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-1 points</span><span class="score unvoted">0 points</span><span class="score likes">1 point</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n2q8ifyo"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Holy fucking circle jerk. What the fuck you guys. </p>
540
+ </div>
541
+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n2q8i" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n1hx8 even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n1hx8"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/shane_c" class="author gray id-t2_3za1d">shane_c</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-1 points</span><span class="score likes">0 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(1 child)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/shane_c" class="author id-t2_3za1d">shane_c</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-1 points</span><span class="score likes">0 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n1hx8dk8"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Yes, and another thing they get wrong is thinking govt protects rights. The Constitution and BORs protects rights FROM the govt.</p>
542
+ </div>
543
+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n1hx8" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3n1hx8" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n22tl odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n22tl"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/rubberstuntbaby" class="author gray id-t2_6102b">rubberstuntbaby</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">3 points</span><span class="score likes">4 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/rubberstuntbaby" class="author id-t2_6102b">rubberstuntbaby</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">3 points</span><span class="score likes">4 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n22tli2i"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>"That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men". Protecting individual rights is a fundamental obligation of any just government.</p>
544
+ </div>
545
+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n22tl" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3n1hx8" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3mzlrv even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3mzlrv"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/minibum" class="author gray id-t2_61l3s">minibum</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-4 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-3 points</span><span class="score likes">-2 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(1 child)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/minibum" class="author id-t2_61l3s">minibum</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-4 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-3 points</span><span class="score likes">-2 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3mzlrvd9s"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Did people actually think that they were "given"?</p>
546
+ </div>
547
+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3mzlrv" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"><div id="siteTable_t1_c3mzlrv" class="sitetable listing"><div class="thing id-t1_c3n0485 odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n0485"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/NeoPlatonist" class="author gray submitter id-t2_6rasj">NeoPlatonist</a><span class="userattrs">[<a class="submitter" title="submitter" href="/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/">S</a>]</span> <span class="score dislikes">-2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-1 points</span><span class="score likes">0 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/NeoPlatonist" class="author submitter id-t2_6rasj">NeoPlatonist</a><span class="userattrs">[<a class="submitter" title="submitter" href="/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/">S</a>]</span> <span class="score dislikes">-2 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-1 points</span><span class="score likes">0 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n0485c5g"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Some in this thread do, evidently.</p>
548
+ </div>
549
+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n0485" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li><li><a href="#c3mzlrv" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">parent</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n2bp3 odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n2bp3"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Self_Manifesto" class="author gray id-t2_54o5k">Self_Manifesto</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Self_Manifesto" class="author id-t2_54o5k">Self_Manifesto</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n2bp3gu1"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>There are no such things as "rights." There <em>are,</em> however, good ideas and bad ideas.</p>
550
+ </div>
551
+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n2bp3" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n2jgy even comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n2jgy"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Bubwah" class="author gray id-t2_5zf4c">Bubwah</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/Bubwah" class="author id-t2_5zf4c">Bubwah</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">0 points</span><span class="score unvoted">1 point</span><span class="score likes">2 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n2jgy0gx"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>...but if you're a woman, you get the shaft.</p>
552
+ </div>
553
+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n2jgy" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n0rn0 odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n0rn0"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/thegoods7" class="author gray id-t2_63x2p">thegoods7</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-1 points</span><span class="score unvoted">0 points</span><span class="score likes">1 point</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/thegoods7" class="author id-t2_63x2p">thegoods7</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-1 points</span><span class="score unvoted">0 points</span><span class="score likes">1 point</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n0rn07lb"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Rights are not given, only given back. Anything else is a privilege afforded to you by other people.</p>
554
+ </div>
555
+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n0rn0" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/><div class="thing id-t1_c3n0u52 odd comment"><p class="parent"><a name="c3n0u52"/></p><div class="midcol unvoted"><div class="arrow up login-required"/><div class="arrow down login-required"/></div><div class="entry unvoted"><div class="collapsed" style="display:none"><a href="#" class="expand">[+]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/singlefaze" class="author gray id-t2_5tgye">singlefaze</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-5 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-4 points</span><span class="score likes">-3 points</span> ago  <a href="#" class="expand">(0 children)</a></div><div class="noncollapsed"><p class="tagline"><a href="#" class="expand">[–]</a><a href="http://www.reddit.com/user/singlefaze" class="author id-t2_5tgye">singlefaze</a><span class="userattrs"/> <span class="score dislikes">-5 points</span><span class="score unvoted">-4 points</span><span class="score likes">-3 points</span> ago</p><form class="usertext" id="form-t1_c3n0u52pcr"><div class="usertext-body"><div class="md"><p>Up vote for up votes! Read Mark Levin's Ameritopia!</p>
556
+ </div>
557
+ </div></form><ul class="flat-list buttons"><li class="first"><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/comments/p6qhi/reddit_we_need_to_clear_up_some_misunderstandings/c3n0u52" class="bylink" rel="nofollow">permalink</a></li></ul></div></div><div class="child"/><div class="clearleft"/></div><div class="clearleft"/></div></div></div><div class="footer-parent"><div class="footer rounded"><div class="col"><ul class="flat-vert hover"><li class="flat-vert title">about</li><li><a href="http://www.reddit.com/blog/">blog</a></li><li><span class="separator"/><a href="http://www.reddit.com/ad_inq/">advertise</a></li><li><span class="separator"/><a href="http://www.reddit.com/code/">source code</a></li><li><span class="separator"/><a href="http://www.reddit.com/feedback/">contact us</a></li></ul></div><div class="col"><ul class="flat-vert hover"><li class="flat-vert title">help</li><li><a href="http://www.reddit.com/help/">help</a></li><li><span class="separator"/><a href="http://www.reddit.com/help/faq">FAQ</a></li><li><span class="separator"/><a href="http://www.reddit.com/help/reddiquette">reddiquette</a></li><li><span class="separator"/><a href="http://www.reddit.com/reddits/">subreddits</a></li></ul></div><div class="col"><ul class="flat-vert hover"><li class="flat-vert title">tools</li><li><a href="http://i.reddit.com">mobile</a></li><li><span class="separator"/><a href="http://www.reddit.com/socialite/">firefox extension</a></li><li><span class="separator"/><a href="https://chrome.google.com/webstore/detail/algjnflpgoopkdijmkalfcifomdhmcbe">chrome extension</a></li><li><span class="separator"/><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/buttons/">buttons</a></li><li><span class="separator"/><a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/widget/">widget</a></li></ul></div><div class="col"><ul class="flat-vert hover"><li class="flat-vert title">&lt;3</li><li><a href="http://www.reddit.com/help/gold/" class="buygold">reddit gold</a></li><li><span class="separator"/><a href="http://www.reddit.com/store/">store</a></li><li><span class="separator"/><a href="http://redditgifts.com">redditgifts</a></li><li><span class="separator"/><a href="http://reddit.tv">reddit.tv</a></li><li><span class="separator"/><a href="http://radioreddit.com">radio reddit</a></li></ul></div></div><p class="bottommenu">Use of this site constitutes acceptance of our <a href="http://reddit.com/help/useragreement">User Agreement</a> and <a href="http://reddit.com/help/privacypolicy">Privacy Policy</a>. © 2012 reddit inc. All rights reserved.</p><p class="bottommenu">REDDIT and the ALIEN Logo are registered trademarks of reddit inc.</p><p class="bottommenu serverinfo"><span class="icon">π</span> <span class="content">Rendered by PID 27475 on app-131 running 0c8dadd.</span></p></div><div class="login-popup cover-overlay" style="display: none"><div class="cover"/><div class="popup"><h1 class="cover-msg">you'll need to login or register to do that</h1><div class="login-form-section divide"><h3>create a new account</h3><p class="tagline">all it takes is a username and password</p><form id="login_reg" class="user-form register-form"><div><ul><li><span class="error BAD_USERNAME field-user" style="display:none"/><span class="error USERNAME_TAKEN field-user" style="display:none"/><span class="error USERNAME_TAKEN_DEL field-user" style="display:none"/></li><li><span class="error BAD_EMAILS field-email" style="display:none"/></li><li><span class="error BAD_PASSWORD field-passwd" style="display:none"/></li><li><span class="error BAD_PASSWORD_MATCH field-passwd2" style="display:none"/></li><li><table><tbody><tr><td/><td><img class="capimage" alt="i wonder if these things even work" src="http://www.redditstatic.com/kill.png"/></td></tr><tr><td align="right"/><td/><td><span class="error BAD_CAPTCHA field-captcha" style="display:none"/></td></tr></tbody></table><span class="error RATELIMIT field-ratelimit" style="display:none"/><span class="error RATELIMIT field-vdelay" style="display:none"/></li><li/></ul><p class="submit"><span class="throbber"/><span class="status"/></p></div></form><p><span class="orangered">is it really that easy? only one way to find out...</span></p></div><div class="login-form-section"><h3>login</h3><p class="tagline">already have an account and just want to login?</p><form id="login_login" class="user-form login-form"><div><ul><li/><li><span class="error WRONG_PASSWORD field-passwd" style="display:none"/></li><li/><li><a class="recover-password" href="/password">recover password</a></li></ul><p class="submit"><span class="throbber"/><span class="status"/></p></div></form></div><div class="clear"/><div class="close-popup"><a href="#">close this window</a></div></div></div><div class="lang-popup cover-overlay" style="display: none"><div class="cover"/><div class="popup"><form class="pretty-form short-text"><table class="content preftable"><tbody><tr><th>interface language</th><td class="prefright"> <span class="little gray hover">(*) incomplete <a href="http://www.reddit.com/r/politics/i18n">volunteer to translate</a></span></td></tr><tr><th>content language</th><td class="prefright"><br/><hr/><table><tbody><tr><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/></tr><tr><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/></tr><tr><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/></tr><tr><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/></tr><tr><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/></tr><tr><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/></tr><tr><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/></tr><tr><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/></tr><tr><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/></tr><tr><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/></tr><tr><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/></tr><tr><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/></tr><tr><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/></tr><tr><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/></tr><tr><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/><td style="padding-right: 15px; white-space: nowrap;"/></tr></tbody></table></td></tr><tr><td/></tr></tbody></table></form><div style="text-align:center; clear:both;"><a href="#">close this window</a></div></div></div></body></html>